Do you believe in Universal Health Care ?

[marquis2]

If everyone worked and put 100% effort into everything they did then all of the above would fall into place and they would actually deserve everything you mentioned and could easily get them. Problem is this country has become such an enabler for people who would rather suck off the government teet than be productive members of society. If you took away the government part of it and made them realize that all the free shit they get comes from every working person around them and they would have to go door to door asking for each person's "contribution" to the hand-out system they might realize the money the government gives them is really the peoples' money. Then maybe some of those leeches pride/shame would kick in and they would get of their asses and work for what they want.

This country afford every person every opportunity to achieve a level of success. It's up the the individual to decide how successful they want to be. There's not some government system set up that stops people from working, going to school, or anything like that. It's people just being lazy.

I'm sure I have lots more rhetoric to spew but what's the point. 100 years of welfare isn't going to be solved in a porn forum.

This is a counsel of perfection, in an abstract,theoretical world it would be true.
Not everybody can get to the top of the tree , not everybody can make the break. There isn't room for everyone at the top.Besides the determination to work hard there is always the need for being in the right place at the right time.To penalise people just because they can't get the top jobs is no way forward.There is a need for street sweepers and garbage collectors as much as for most higher paid jobs (particularly lawyers) but why should hard working men and women be denied basic health care because they don't earn big dollars? In Europe it's correctly considered to be a basic human right.

 

[geraldhp42]

I feel sick to the stomach from reading the posts of some of you who would rather complain about your tax dollars and your economies than talk about the real issue: people who cannot afford to go to the doctor. People who cannot afford medicine. In the richest country in the world. It's sick. And anyone in the world wondering how it came to this, need only read this thread, to understand that for those who lead us, and a lot of those who follow, humanity is dead, and money and individualism reign supreme.

Got a question. We have a couple of threads going on right now about God and religion.

How do you feel about forcing children in public schools to say a group prayer? Please do not invoke the 1st amendment, tell me how you personally feel.

 

[hiimrudd]

The sound track from Kill Bill Vol. 1 gives me a hardon

 

[ninetysixcavy]

It's a loaded question.

I have family in MN, and depending on your financial status/ability to pay, health care there is pretty much free. My cousin recieved a $3,000 tonsillectomy operation essentially for free. You may have topay a small percentage, but he never recieved one bill in the mail. He got a FREE surgery. Here: Minnesota Care . Its universal health care!

What it boils down to is, on a micro level (i.e. the individual states), is that it's different from state to state. Depending on where you live , there is universal health care. It's just not labeled "universal." Do a little research. I would be willing to bet that many of you will find that there may be programs designed to help the less fortunate in your given area/state. I like the system we have now - local governments running things, instead of the Feds - and at least in my experience, the system we have actually works pretty damn good. Also, we all know that at any ER they can't deny you medical attention, that's another thing that people seem to forget.

^Above post is pretty shoddy, and Minnesota is one of the biggest welfare/socialist states in the country, but what I stated is true. There actually IS free health care in the USA, right now.

Here is a good link/example of a Universal Health Care system and it's flaws:

Brits in record numbers go abroad for health care
Long waiting lists, substandard treatment, increasing threat from hospital superbugs

 

[ninetysixcavy]

The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration

The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was...a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually.

During the years since that estimate, the illegal alien population is estimated to have roughly doubled, so the estimated fiscal costs also will have at least doubled.

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersf134

All you fuckin' dunces who support your own death (illegal immigration invasion of US) need to stop it...NOW. You want Universal health care, there ^ is one sollution.

 

[Friday on my mind]

No one in the US really knows if they are covered until they get really sick.The Insurance companies spend 50 billion a year on trying to find ways to deny claims.But let me agree with you on the REAL problem is the cost.Yes people under served by this health care system is a tragedy but the issue for us as a people is what this system will do to even the healthy which is bankrupt them.Again I reiterate for the 3rd time WE SPEND DOUBLE WHAT ANY OTHER COUNTRY DOES PER CAPTIA AND ARE RANKED 37TH.We are being hosed by the Insurance companies along with others.I can't see how some here can't see as bad as govt is ,for profit corporations are worse.All the rest of the world does it maybe not perfect but way better and cheaper than we do.

I will just bump this as an answer to all who think the current system is defensible as compared to the ones the other industrialized nations have.You can point out flaws in the other systems sure but do they really compare with the flaws in ours,much less preventive care,statistically much poorer health care outcomes which led to the very low ranking the US system got from the World health organization in 2000 and double the cost per capitia in the US.Now those are flaws IMO.The current system cannot be maintained as I have stated before it will break the bank,so again I ask if you are against so-called socialized medicine which eliminates the insurance companies role, what are your solutions not just what are your reasons for not liking the single payer type system everyone else has.

 

[pathfinder]

This is a counsel of perfection, in an abstract,theoretical world it would be true.
Not everybody can get to the top of the tree , not everybody can make the break. There isn't room for everyone at the top.

That goes without saying, but there are more than enough jobs and opportunities to either get a job or be your own boss or whatever that we should never have to support anyone in this country. If people are practically killing themselves to get into this country to work, that pretty much says that there are jobs to be had and with enough money sense you can work a shitty job (or two or three) and live well. There might not be room at the top, but there's alway new tops to work toward and there's always someone falling off the top because they're too stupid/greedy/lazy to do the work to stay there or they die or whatever.

 

[D-rock]

That goes without saying, but there are more than enough jobs and opportunities to either get a job or be your own boss or whatever that we should never have to support anyone in this country. If people are practically killing themselves to get into this country to work, that pretty much says that there are jobs to be had and with enough money sense you can work a shitty job (or two or three) and live well. There might not be room at the top, but there's alway new tops to work toward and there's always someone falling off the top because they're too stupid/greedy/lazy to do the work to stay there or they die or whatever.

Sorry but I feel the need to call you out on this one because it just doesn’t coincide with reality. If you really believe that get rid of all the money you have, give up everything own, sever all contact with anybody that could help you in any possible way, especially financially, that you know now permanently, and come and live where I live. Maybe you could even add in a sick relative or old parent that you have to take care of while you’re at it.

Plus, what do some of the people that claw there way into this country make before they get here, almost nothing? So basically you’re saying they might be able to get something that was better than almost nothing. That doesn't really say much. I'd also like to see you work three full time jobs nonstop.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Sorry but I feel the need to call you out on this one because it just doesn’t coincide with reality. If you really believe that get rid of all the money you have, give up everything own, sever all contact with anybody that could help you in any possible way, especially financially, that you know now permanently, and come and live where I live. Maybe you could even add in a sick relative or old parent that you have to take care of while you’re at it.

Plus, what do some of the people that claw there way into this country make before they get here, almost nothing? So basically you’re saying they might be able to get something that was better than almost nothing. That doesn't really say much. I'd also like to see you work three full time jobs nonstop.

Right on, I know Michigan has really been hard hit by the shrinkage of manufacturing jobs that made up a large amount of the good middle class jobs that were previously there.And I still am waiting for the folks who are against a govt take over of health care to state what they would do.Keep the current system? Even the BIG 3 automakers are really starting to cry about the current system,as it is making them uncompetetive with foreign automakers.They have been to DC to see Bush looking for help and are probably looking forward to the day when health care is no longer their concern.And that will be a great day IMO as they have not handled it well at all.They have let costs get out of control,but that was probably ineviatable when you have a for profit system.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Universal healthcare wouldn't solve the problems we have in this country. In fact, it would probably just create a cluster-fuck of other problems for the U.S. to have to deal with.

Yes, poor people, who normally wouldn't be able to afford it, would be able to receive healthcare. That would be a good thing...the only good thing.

There are underlying issues that people aren't seeing when they look at implementing universal healthcare here in the U.S. The healthcare industry would suffer and start to crumble in this country if every single person could just walk into a hospital or doctor's office and get FREE healthcare. Hospitals and doctor's offices are businesses. Businesses rely on paying customers to survive. Non-paying customers = no profit. Little to no profit = failure, in the business sense. Hospitals and doctor's offices would start to disappear after a while, as there would be little to no money to be made. If McDonald's gave away all of it's cheeseburgers for free when it first opened, do you think it would even exist today? Fuck no. It would've disappeared shortly after it started.

Also...ultimately, who would be paying for universal healthcare in the U.S.? We would. I would have to pay higher taxes, as would every other tax-paying U.S. citizen, just so everyone could have the freedom to obtain healthcare. Personally, I haven't had medical insurance in almost 3 years. Not once would I have needed to use it either. So, why should I be paying for someone else's hospital bills when I don't even have any for myself?

I know that sounds selfish, but just like no one is asked to send money to other people to pay their rent, or their electric bill, or to put gas in their car, no one should be asked to pay for other peoples prescription medicine.

Do you believe in Universal Housing? Surely every man, woman and child deserves a home - no more homelessness?

Do you believe in Universal Clothing? Surely every man, woman and child deserves clothes on their backs?

Do you believe in Universal Food Distribution and Consumption? Surely every man, woman and child deserve food in their bellies - no more hunger?

Do you believe in Universal Wealth? Surely everyone deserves to be rich - no more poor?

Do you believe in Universal success? Surely everyone deserves to win - no more losers?

ad infinitum...

I'm growing old and my memory isn't what it used to be - but wasn't this tried before, somewhere?

IMO, that's a very good post.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Universal healthcare wouldn't solve the problems we have in this country. In fact, it would probably just create a cluster-fuck of other problems for the U.S. to have to deal with.

Yes, poor people, who normally wouldn't be able to afford it, would be able to receive healthcare. That would be a good thing...the only good thing.

There are underlying issues that people aren't seeing when they look at implementing universal healthcare here in the U.S. The healthcare industry would suffer and start to crumble in this country if every single person could just walk into a hospital or doctor's office and get FREE healthcare. Hospitals and doctor's offices are businesses. Businesses rely on paying customers to survive. Non-paying customers = no profit. Little to no profit = failure, in the business sense. Hospitals and doctor's offices would start to disappear after a while, as there would be little to no money to be made. If McDonald's gave away all of it's cheeseburgers for free when it first opened, do you think it would even exist today? Fuck no. It would've disappeared shortly after it started.

Also...ultimately, who would be paying for universal healthcare in the U.S.? We would. I would have to pay higher taxes, as would every other tax-paying U.S. citizen, just so everyone could have the freedom to obtain healthcare. Personally, I haven't had medical insurance in almost 3 years. Not once would I have needed to use it either. So, why should I be paying for someone else's hospital bills when I don't even have any for myself?

I know that sounds selfish, but just like no one is asked to send money to other people to pay their rent, or their electric bill, or to put gas in their car, no one should be asked to pay for other peoples prescription medicine.



IMO, that's a very good post.

Chef if you read what I posted earlier the reasons I gave for being in favor of what's being called Universal Health care using a single payer system is mainly for the cost savings,the fact that everyone would be covered is a nice side benefit but not the primary one.The country can survive being silly and not taking better care of some of us but can't survive a health care system that has costs increases at double the inflation rate all the time.So if you really want to spend less, support reform.You spoke of how a biz is about profits and are entirely correct,thats why health care can not be run like a biz.No other country in the world has private insurance like we do.We SPEND double per capitia for health care than any other country(thats like the 4th time I have said that and no one seems to think thats a big deal lol) and maybe if our system was ranked #1 we could say it was working but it ranks 30 something.So the bottom line is all those other countries are getting a lot more for a lot less spent.No one has really answered me on how and why that isn't true,you hear propaganda about how people in other countries don't like thier systems and even some people here in Europe like the UK who think their system is not perfect.Well I say to them I agree your systems are probably not perfect but your countries inperfections and systemic sustainabilty issues pale IMO to ours.Also let me say nothings "free",health care isn't by any stretch free now and never will be.The issue is how and who pays for it and actually one of the flaws in our ystem is that many people now don't see doctors enough and end up costing a lot more for treatment because the problem is so advanced,thats one of the big ways other countries keep costs down a lot more preventive care than we have.I have seen posts by folks in the UK talking about how they are sure to see there doctors when they are suppose to as their system has ways that really encourage that.So I guess I would say chef you should love the socialized universal plan, it should cost like 1/2 what of what it does now eventually.Sure doctors and drug companies will not like it and don't kid yourself they are the ones who spread all the bad noise about govt run health care systems.But for the good of the country they will just have to go into something else to make the big bucks we can't afford their way much longer.

 

[geraldhp42]

A community is supposed to take care of its own. If the richest nation on earth has people dying and living in misery because they can't afford doctors, then there's something very fucked up about the morals of that community. Cause where I come from, everyone can go and see a doctor anytime, and we're a hell of a lot worse off financially than this place we now call home, you and I.

It's one thing to not be covered when you're healthy. Neither am I. But if you or I got sick or were in a horrendous accident, we would end up with obscene bills, or worse, we would not be treated and left to die or waste away. There are all those rules to say, no, no, everyone will be seen, and then will be billed... but the fact is, a hell of a lot of people aren't seen, and a hell of a lot of people do get turned away, because if there's nobody to pick up the bill, things are a lot less likely to get done.

The government could end the war and all its overseas military involvements, then use the money from that to institute the best health and education systems in the world - free - and STILL have change to give you a tax break.

Fox

Where's the dividing line? When should a community take care of its own, provide for its people, and when is it a point of too much?

Let's talk about health care. Some major problems faced today are obesity and hearth failure. Maybe instead of allowing people to choose what they want to eat, everyone's diet should be carefully regulated. While we're at that and since we're already attacking smoking, let's try outlawing alcohol again. Poisons people's livers, you know.

Who knows, there might be people out there who feel that church attendance is beneficial towards one's health.

I know that is not what you want (or I don't think that it is). Your concern is health care. And I'm not trying to make a slippery slope argument.

But since you are making a moral argument out of this, you also need to be aware that in spectrum between complete anarchy and minute people have staked out different positions within the range. You have taken a position that states that universal health care is a worthy prospect for the government. Others are not in that area, and feel that in the area of what government should do either encompasses more or less.

But as soon as we start to attack other peoples morality based on a different conclusion of what the government's role should be, then we've crossed a line.

I can't say I care for it when people turn to the community to provide for everyone. Community isn't there to take care of its own. It's there to make sure we don't slip into anarchy. It's the body that makes sure we play by the same rules and don't violate each others bodies or properties. It is not there to punish people for making more money than you. It's not there to make any moral or ethical decisions. It is amoral. It is not a living organism. It's existence should be kept to a minimum.

And as for every single damn post about how it's so much better in Europe or other parts of the world: For everyone of European descent, the reason we are here right now is because at some point in the past our ancestors decided that Europe sucked sour frog ass for whatever reason and came here. Why did they come here? Because it's not Europe. If you like the way things are done, then go back to your ancestral homeland and enjoy it.

 

[pathfinder]

Sorry but I feel the need to call you out on this one because it just doesn’t coincide with reality. If you really believe that get rid of all the money you have, give up everything own, sever all contact with anybody that could help you in any possible way, especially financially, that you know now permanently, and come and live where I live. Maybe you could even add in a sick relative or old parent that you have to take care of while you’re at it.

Plus, what do some of the people that claw there way into this country make before they get here, almost nothing? So basically you’re saying they might be able to get something that was better than almost nothing. That doesn't really say much. I'd also like to see you work three full time jobs nonstop.

I'm saying if someone wants to be a failure it's pretty easy. If they want to stay above water then they have to work for it. it wasn't too lng ago that a lot of the people in this country would bust their asses to make ends meet... my grandfathers being two of them. They didn't go on welfare. They didn't have to live in section 8/HUD housing. They didn't kill anyone to put shoes on their kids feet or sell crack or rob or steal. They worked. People today are to fucking coddled to even imagine working more than one job to do what they have to do. Could I do it? If I had to, but I've been fortunate enough to grow up in a relatively stable family and be responsible in my decisions throughout life. So my take on it is this... you make your decisions and you should live with them and take responsibility for your actions or lack of actions and not expect everyone else to carry you through life...

 

[geraldhp42]

I went to see a doctor today for my torn rotator cuff. I have no insurance so I had to see a free clinic doctor, they have one of those in Buffalo.

I live in South Carolina. Here, it's actually illegal for the hospital to turn away anyone for lack of ability to pay. If anything you get better treatment without insurance because then no one is pressuring the doctors to get you out quicker (and cheaper).

I damn well do question the morality of anyone who attacks another nation for any reason, or supports said attack, or anyone who tells me that they would rather people die or wallow in illness not being able to afford medicine or treatment, than have their taxes help to pick up the bill. That is very morally fucking questionable thanks very much. I don't think there's a single religion nor human rights group on the planet that would not find that morally questionable. I think people who say "I don't wanna help pay for little Sean to see a doctor to find out he has Leukemia and I certainly don't wanna help pay for his treatment", are very morally questionable.

I do have to say that I found that refreshing.

This thread doesn't only discuss American healthcare and probably half the board members are not Americans. As for those like myself who are European but live in America, however open-minded you may think you are, I can now add you to the massive and daily-growing ranks of Americans who have told me, in no uncertain terms, that if I don't like (fill in blank) in America, why don't I go back to where I came from. Yeah, what a great and forward thinking country. I guess it's okay to lobby for change and point to ways we are medieval compared to other places in the world - if you have the noble honour of being born here. Although I'm well aware that were I American by birth as well as being actually American (i.e., citizen), then many of those same people would *still* tell me, hey if you don't like it git out just like they did to the Dixie Chicks. Haha.

Okay, I'll have to admit that my above rant to which this was a reply was a release of much pent up frustration.

 

[pathfinder]

I don't see human beings as "failures" or not, but if I did, I think the people at the top of my list of failures, would be people that called people that couldn't afford healthcare or food or housing, "failures".
Fox

Laziness breeds laziness. When we have third generation welfare "families" that intentionally reproduce just to up the amount of government handouts they can get... then yes, you're right. They're not failures... because you have to make an attempt to succeed in order to fail... and they don't even bother entering the race any more. If there weren't so many leeches on the healthcare system, the healthcare would be more affordable because the people who do pay wouldn't be paying for themselves as well as complete strangers.
Just like stealing... it brings the price for the people "foolish" enough to pay and play the game by the rules...

 

[ChefChiTown]

Laziness breeds laziness. When we have third generation welfare "families" that intentionally reproduce just to up the amount of government handouts they can get... then yes, you're right. They're not failures... because you have to make an attempt to succeed in order to fail... and they don't even bother entering the race any more. If there weren't so many leeches on the healthcare system, the healthcare would be more affordable because the people who do pay wouldn't be paying for themselves as well as complete strangers.
Just like stealing... it brings the price for the people "foolish" enough to pay and play the game by the rules...

There are some people who are poor because of uncontrollable circumstances, but I do agree with you.

A lot of people never grow up to respect the dollar. They get hand out after hand out and expect other people to always take care of them. I know a few people who have been extremely poor and/or homeless. Fortunately, most of them realized that they would actually have to work to have a successful life.

Handouts will only get you so far, even when it's healthcare. Eventually, people have to realize that they need to take care of themselves. I'm all for helping people out, but there's a big difference between lending someone $20 bucks and paying for their doctor bill.

 

[marquis2]

Laziness breeds laziness. When we have third generation welfare "families" that intentionally reproduce just to up the amount of government handouts they can get... then yes, you're right. They're not failures... because you have to make an attempt to succeed in order to fail... and they don't even bother entering the race any more. If there weren't so many leeches on the healthcare system, the healthcare would be more affordable because the people who do pay wouldn't be paying for themselves as well as complete strangers.
Just like stealing... it brings the price for the people "foolish" enough to pay and play the game by the rules...

We all know there are people like this and the mistake is to let the tail wag the dog and use this as an excuse not to provide for those less fortunate.It's really not a valid argument to say "don't do this because some people will abuse it" because the benefits clearly outweigh the objection.
I live in a society with free (at point of use) medical care and believe me, it's a great thing.It doesn't always work quite how we would like but it's nothing like as flawed as is often portrayed.If I feel unwell I pick up the phone and visit a doctor within an hour or two.If it's serious the doctor will visit me.My prescriptions are free too and this includes appliances as well as drugs.I need a wheelchair? Ring up occupational therapy and one will arrive.Somebody disabled in the house? Ring them up again and the home will be equipped to help them.It's what's called a civilised approach to the misfortunes of others.You will notice that after 61 years of this the sky hasn't fallen in.It's done by a thing called National Insurance , we all pay in and like any other insurance if you are unlucky you make a claim, if you are lucky you lose the premiums paid.The problem with the service is that demand will always outstrip supply because of course there can never be too much medical provision.

 

[pathfinder]

I'm not opposed to the proposed bill of health care for children... mainly because children shouldn't have to suffer because of their parents inability to support them.

I'd be curious to know how much people's motivation to stay healthy is based on how easy it is for them to be treated. By that I mean, if they know they're be treated for free regardless of the severity, if make less effort to remain healthy. Like people who eat too much and put themselves at risk for diabetes. If they would just figure the health care system will bail them out when shit goes downhill for them.

 

[marquis2]

I'm not opposed to the proposed bill of health care for children... mainly because children shouldn't have to suffer because of their parents inability to support them.

I'd be curious to know how much people's motivation to stay healthy is based on how easy it is for them to be treated. By that I mean, if they know they're be treated for free regardless of the severity, if make less effort to remain healthy. Like people who eat too much and put themselves at risk for diabetes. If they would just figure the health care system will bail them out when shit goes downhill for them.

It's very largely irrelevant. People smoke for example;they know it's bad news of course but the problems lie so far in the future that they don't worry about it.
Those who do take care do so because they don't want to be ill in the first place.Nobody goes round thinking that it doesn't matter if they become ill as it doesn't cost anything to get better!Apart from everything else,some cures don't work!
The other side to the argument is-how many people who pay medical bills ignore early symptoms and wait till things become more serious before seeking advice ? If I'm not sure about anything-an ugly looking skin growth or whatever, then I'm down to my local health centre about it!

 

[pathfinder]

It's very largely irrelevant. People smoke for example;they know it's bad news of course but the problems lie so far in the future that they don't worry about it.

That's a perfect example... they had the money to buy the cigarettes while they were smoking them... knowing the potential damage it will do. Then, when they get diagnosed with some form of cancer (throat, lung, mouth, etc), all of a sudden there's no money to pay for the medical expenses. Had money to kill themselves, but not to heal themselves. Sorry... my money shouldn't be used for such blatant irresponsibility.

Take responsibility for yourself.